Join Dr. Carolyn Coker Ross on the Inclusive Minds Podcast as she welcomes special guest Dr. Matthew Oware, a leading expert on race and culture. In this insightful episode, we delve into the complex topic of “reverse passing,” exploring cases of white individuals who identify and pass as Black. Drawing from his chapter “How Not to Be an Ally: Critical Race Theory, Afro-Pessimism, and White Women Who Pass as Black” from the book Antiblackness and the Stories of Authentic Allies, Dr. Oware unpacks how these phenomena relate to Critical Race Theory and the notion of race as a social construct.
In this episode you’ll learn:
- Unpacking “Reverse Passing”: Dr. Matthew Oware defines and discusses “reverse passing,” where white individuals identify and perform as Black, examining how this phenomenon, exemplified by Rachel Dolezal, relates to Critical Race Theory and the social construction of race.
- Allyship vs. Appropriation: The episode explores why such acts are considered cultural appropriation and racist, highlighting how individuals gain financial and personal benefits by performing Blackness, contrasting this with authentic allyship in the fight against institutionalized racism.
- Rap as a Cultural Lens: Dr. Oware also delves into his work on millennial rap music, showcasing how artists like Kendrick Lamar address themes of vulnerability and intergenerational trauma, providing a powerful window into contemporary American society and facilitating deeper conversations about race, gender, and social consciousness.
Matthew Oware is the Irving May Endowed Chair in Sociology at the University of Richmond. He holds a Ph.D. from Indiana University Bloomington. His research explores how race and gender are constructed in popular culture, with a focus on Black masculinity, the Black family, and African American expressive culture. Oware is the author of I Got Something to Say: Race, Gender, and Social Consciousness in Rap Music, which analyzes the lyrics of millennial rap artists. His work has been published in leading journals such as the Journal of Contemporary Ethnography, Journal of Black Studies, and Sociology of Race and Ethnicity
https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthew-oware-016b786
Dr Carolyn’s Links
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carolyn-coker-ross-md-mph-ceds-c-7b81176/
TEDxPleasantGrove talk: https://youtu.be/ljdFLCc3RtM
To buy “Antiblackness and the Stories of Authentic Allies” – bit.ly/3ZuSp1T
Dr. Carolyn Coker Ross: Hi, this is Dr. Carolyn Coker Ross, bringing you the Inclusive Minds Podcast. This podcast was inspired by the book of which I’m a co-editor entitled Anti-Blackness and the Stories of Authentic Allies. Lived experiences in the fight against institutionalized racism. If you’re a psychologist, a social worker, an addiction professional, or a healthcare provider, or anyone who wants to broaden your horizons, then this podcast is for you.
The goal of the podcast is to help you understand some of the more complex issues facing our culture today. My guest. Are experts in their fields, and we’ll be talking about a wide array of topics including cross-cultural issues, the intersection of race and trauma, social justice and health inequities.
They will be sharing both their lived experiences and their expert opinions. The goal is to give you a felt experience and to let you know that you are not alone in being confused by these complex issues. We want to provide nuanced information with context that will enable you to make your own decisions about these important topics.
Hi everybody and welcome to the show. Today I have a special guest, Matthew O. Who is an Irving May Endowed chair in sociology at the University of Richmond. He holds a PhD from Indiana University in Bloomington. And his research explores how race and gender are constructed in popular culture with the focus on black masculinity, the black family, and African American expressive culture, of which the Met Gala was a great example recently.
Oware is the author of the book, I Got something to Say, race, gender, and Social Consciousness in Rap Music, which analyzes the lyrics of millennial rap artists. His work has been published in leading journals such as The Journal of Contemporary Ethnography, journal of Black Studies and Sociology of Race and Ethnicity.
Dr. Oware is also an author in our book. Anti-blackness and the stories of authentic allies lived experiences in the fight against institutionalized racism. Welcome to the show.
Dr. Matthew Oware: Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate being here and being, having the opportunity to talk about, about my chapter in this book.
Dr. Carolyn Coker Ross: Yes. And you wrote an amazing chapter, um, the title of. The chapter is How not to be an ally, critical Race Theory, Afro pessimism and white Women who Pass as Black. This chapter, to me, was fascinating. And in the chapter you discussed the cases of, I think it was three white women who quote unquote reverse pass.
Can you define that term?
Dr. Matthew Oware: Yes. Again, thank you for having me. I appreciate the opportunity to talk about the, the chapter in this wonderful book. So I’m borrowing from Baden and Wilson’s, uh, research on what they call reverse passing. And essentially they define it as white individuals who pass as black.
And so, um, historically the literature has. Talked about black individuals who’s who have passed this white for instances of security, safety, or even taking advantage of white privilege. But Bowden and Wilson, uh, want to focus on cases or instances where there have been in the past individuals, uh, white individuals who’ve passed as black.
So they came up with the term reverse passing for that.
Dr. Carolyn Coker Ross: Would you mind just giving the, one of the examples of one of these women, I think there was one who was really in the public eye who was at in Seattle and became the NAACP president. She was deeply embedded in black activism and the black community.
Can you say just a little bit about her story?
Dr. Matthew Oware: Absolutely. So this is Rachel Dolezal. Some of your listeners may remember Rachel Dolezal In 2015. She was actually in the media, across the media of various, uh, news stations. She is a white woman who identifies as black. As a matter of fact, she still continues to identify as black.
To this day, um, she was. Ask on, uh, in an interview, in a publicized interview by a reporter, she was, showed an image of a black man and asked if that black man was her father. She sort of looked at the reporter and sort of walked away because then the reporter asked her if she identifies as black, right?
And so that sort of created a big. Kerfuffle around this woman. And so the media began to focus on her because she actually was the president of the Seattle NAACP chapter. She al, she also held another prominent position where on the documents she identified as. Black, white, and, and Latino. Um, now once she was sort of thoroughly embedded in the media, she was interviewed by Matt Lauer on the Today Show and Matt Lauer specifically asked her, um, how she identifies.
She said she identifies as black, and then he asked her. She identified as black sort of to take advantage of blackness, and she suggested that that wasn’t the case. She, she actually said that she saw herself. She sees herself as a black woman. She went on to write a book. She actually had a Netflix series.
In her book, she says that when she was young, she used to draw pictures of herself like color in her face as brown. Her parents both identify as white. Her parents identified her as white, but she didn’t see herself in that way. So she actually, from Bowden and Wilson’s perspective, she is culturally passing, reverse passing.
Right? So she presents herself, she has presented herself in the media with a darker skin tone, uh, with curly hair, with kinte cloth. Right. Sort of having sort of indicators or using indicators of what we might think of as black. Her inflection for when interview that she did, she gave sort of a black inflection.
Again, another sort of indicator of what we might perceive of as black, but, but she, she continues to say that she sees herself as a black person.
Dr. Carolyn Coker Ross: Is it delusional or is it misappropriation?
Dr. Matthew Oware: This, this is the tricky part because, and there were, there have been some sociologists who talk about if you believe.
If we believe and they believe that race is socially constructed, yeah. Then what this means is race is not essential. It’s not biological, right? It’s not rooted in biological biology. It’s not anchored there, and so it’s the meaning that we as a society ascribe. To particular racial identities and racial categories.
If you follow that logic to its conclusion, you can conceivably have a person identify themselves as a particular racial category. Now, the tricky part there is that they can identify themselves in a particular way, but that identification has to be validated and legitimated by outsiders, right? So in the case of Rachel Dolezal, she identifies that way, but there are not outsiders who validate that particular claim, but she still makes that particular claim.
Right. And so I, I’m not a psychologist, right? So I, I can’t, I, I don’t wanna venture into the area of her sort of. Being sort of classified as delusional. What I do know is that based on her particular identification, she has been able to benefit in ways that African American black women have not been able to benefit.
Right. Okay. They haven’t been given. Like that series. Oh, they haven’t, correct.
Dr. Carolyn Coker Ross: They haven’t been given a Netflix series.
Dr. Matthew Oware: Right. And so in her performance, she’s been able to gain finances off of this performance. Right. And so that’s the part.
Dr. Carolyn Coker Ross: There lies the rub, right?
Dr. Matthew Oware: Yeah, exactly. That’s the part that I’m particularly interested in.
Right. I’m less interested, although I, I, I think it’s important, but I’m less interested in, in whether she’s delusional or not. Right? Yeah. She could be. She couldn’t be. But like sort of working with, within the sort of notion of, so racism, a social construct. Again, if you follow the logic to its extension, an individual could.
Say that there are particular ways, but the complication there is that claim has to be legitimated by others.
Dr. Carolyn Coker Ross: Yeah, that’s, so it’s, it’s such an interesting phenomena in the chapter you wrote, these stories show that the continued importance of race in our society. Through their appropriation of blackness as you talk about with this woman, as articulated also by critical race theory.
So how do these stories relate to critical race theory, which, you know, you talk a lot about the history of that, but just wanna kind of understand more on a lived experience.
Dr. Matthew Oware: Right. So the, the connection that I’m attempting to make between critical race theory and these individuals who, uh. Classify themselves as black is one.
Within critical race theory, there’s this idea that race is a social construct and it’s actually embedded in our institutions, but not only sort of at the institutional level, but at a personal level. Right? And so I’m attempting to make the connection between critical race theory. And these individuals by saying race is still important, right?
Critical race theory argues that race is not imp not only part of our legal system, but it’s also part of other institutions that that also trickles down to the personal to the micro level. And I’m arguing that these individuals are making sort of micro level claims to racial identity that can fit within this notion of this broader theoretical framework of critical race theory.
Dr. Carolyn Coker Ross: Okay. How is that important for us to understand, or why is that important for us to understand?
Dr. Matthew Oware: Yeah, so the key feature of critical race theory, uh, at least the way that I’m using it in this particular case, is this notion that race is socially constructed. That’s, believe it or not, that’s a concept that individuals.
Are still sort of grappling within a whole, right? So like survey data, uh, finds that a majority of the population still believe that race is sort of biologically rooted, still believe that race is, uh, essential, whereas, uh, critical race theory and other sort of sociological theories. Argue that race is a social construct that’s based on time, place, space.
It is contingent right on the environments that individuals find themselves in. And so I’m arguing, so is it also contingent on people’s lived experience?
Dr. Carolyn Coker Ross: Because what’s then it becomes even in some ways more confusing. For example, I have a colleague, by all intents and purposes, looks black. You know, she’s got dark brown skin, you know, et cetera, all of the traits.
But she was adopted into a white family. She was raised by a white family in a white neighborhood, in a predominantly white city. Yeah. So her whole lived experience is, she has a hard time identifying with other black people, because that’s not her lived experience. Yeah, this is the cultural element, right?
Dr. Matthew Oware: Yeah. Okay. This is, this is why culture is, is so important in how we understand race as well. So it’s not, again, it’s your perfect example, right? So it’s not just skin tone or physical features, but it’s actual sort of lived experiences, cultural interactions, right? Understanding the history of African Americans and by being that, living that out.
Right? And so it’s, when we think about race, we have to think about it more than just sort of being one’s Phenotypical features, right? Yeah.
Dr. Carolyn Coker Ross: Yes, obviously, yes. Obviously.
I mean, people who are listening and can’t see that we are pointing to ourselves, and I’m often mistaken for something other than African American. Although my lived experiences, you know, I grew up during the, the end of the Jim Crow era, you know, segregated schools. In Texas, in the south, you know, when I was eight years old, remember going to a movie theater and was told, well, they told me you can sit downstairs, but your brothers and sisters have to sit in the balcony.
Interesting. Yeah, so I mean, my lived experiences, you know, deeply rooted in. My history as a black person, the civil rights struggle, you know? Right. I participated in during college and so on, and yet, you know, sometimes when people meet me, they think the opposite that I was didn’t grow up in that kind of environment.
Interesting. So I think it, it is really complicated and, and you know, I work with some uh, uh, facilities where. That that attract people from all different races and ethnic backgrounds and so on. And there are some people now who are claiming to be quote unquote indigenous, though they have no native Experience. So now this notion that I’ve always assumed if you are indigenous from some native population. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And people are just saying, well, no, I’m indigenous, you know. I’m not gonna mention who they are and what their reasons are.
Dr. Matthew Oware: Yeah, it’s, that’s quite interesting. ’cause I think that’s applicable to Bowden and Wilson’s notion of reverse passing.
Right? Yeah. Um, there’s been some research that has found that there are higher percentages of whites who identify as indigenous or Native American or American Indian. Than in the past,
Dr. Carolyn Coker Ross: like Elizabeth Warren,
Dr. Matthew Oware: Correct. So Elizabeth Warren actually came under critique. Yeah. Because, uh, she’s, well, her family lore was Oh, we’re part native.
That’s right. And she, she was actually challenged on that. And I don’t, I don’t think she or DMA didn’t support that.
And I, I don’t think she identifies that way anymore. Yeah, I don’t think she talks about it anymore.
Dr. Carolyn Coker Ross: No. She was, uh, shamed out of it by Donald Trump, remember?
Dr. Matthew Oware: That’s right. That’s right.
That’s right. Yes. So there have been another, uh, a number of high profile cases of not only Elizabeth Warren, but there are other. White individuals who claim indigeneity. Right? Yeah. And, and that’s sort of been called into question as well.
Dr. Carolyn Coker Ross: So you’ve mentioned the cultural form of reverse passing. What would be the example in, in your chapter you write about a legal.
Form of reverse passing. What’s that like?
Dr. Matthew Oware: That’s right. So a legal form of a reverse passing is on legal documents. So for example, applications to jobs for employment or applications to college. Where you might have a white individual identify as black, right? For uh, legal purposes, the intention there is to gain some benefit, supposed benefit that blacks might gain in employment or blacks might gain in college, right?
These white individuals are identifying themselves in this manner to take advantage of, say, when affirmative action was around affirmative action. Uh, sort of, um, in the sense of, uh, recruiting African Americans to college whites wanting to take advantage of that. So that’s Bowden and Wilson talk about, there’s a legal identification, form of identification as well,
Dr. Carolyn Coker Ross: and there’s again, no way to prove it.Trusting when people put down That’s right. Black or Latinx or.
Dr. Matthew Oware: That’s right. That’s right. So even when they show up right to, to their employment, uh, agencies or to college Right. That there might be some doubt. Right. And, and you know, authorities might ask them again. And, uh, individuals might be committed to how they identify themselves in their application.
So yes, it’s, it is a murky situation.
Dr. Carolyn Coker Ross: They may have to start requiring birth certificates. I guess.
Dr. Matthew Oware: What does your, what does your birth certificate say?
Dr. Carolyn Coker Ross: Yeah, because interesting. I wanted to quote a part of your chapter. You say, through these women’s actions, they demonstrate how race is a constructed.
Category, which we’ve been talking about, which is a central premise of critical race theory. People, quote unquote read them as black because they conveyed markers of blackness through their attire, physical features, cultural expression, or familial references to black men. These aspects are culturally defined, and these three people show how race is contextual.
So why do you think, or how do you think I. These white women. Are so successful in passing and it’s black. I mean, to the point of getting a freaking Netflix series, which, hello? I tried to get one of those.. I was not successful.
Dr. Matthew Oware: I’m still waiting for my Netflix series. I, I think it’ll be a while,
Dr. Carolyn Coker Ross: I think after this podcast.
Dr. Matthew Oware: That fine. You know what, call me Netflix. Call me. Yeah. Um. This is a, this is a really great question and I think one of, one of the reasons that these individuals were successful, I should say that there were two women who identified as black, and then one gender non-conforming person who identified as black.
That’s Satchel Cole. So one of the, one of the reasons that I think that they were success, all of these individuals were successful is they embedded themselves in the social justice movements, right? Social justice movements, specifically targeting police, police brutality against black people or injustices against black people.
And so, because they. Align themselves or play prominent roles in these social justice movements, then I think their performances were more believable. And also, again, they, in, in many instances, they not only dress the part, they kind, they kind of look the part, right. So like they, they may, they may have.
The perception might have been, oh, this is a lighter complected black person. Right. And so their commitment or their supposed commitment to the social justice cause as well as their performance, right? So the, the inflection of their language, their, the way that the, their clothing, their attire. I think all of these things led themselves for some people to believe them over an extended period of time.
Dr. Carolyn Coker Ross: Were there, were there any people in their lives who questioned it?
Dr. Matthew Oware: Yes. Yes. So, uh, we haven’t talked about Jessica Krug. Right. So Jessica Krug was an academic who passed as Afro-Latina. Mm-hmm. Um, there were. She was able to get tenure. She wrote a book that was about African Americans or enslaved blacks while sort of giving off this performance.
But there were individuals who came to question her and her identity. What ended up happening is the more she got questioned, she finally relented and published an article on the website, medium apologizing for her Performance of Blackness, stating that she was a white Jewish individual. So these individuals eventually did get questioned, but I think that initial.
Performance, that initial investment in these social justice causes allowed them some latitude to sort of pull off this performance for a while to pass as black for for a while.
Dr. Carolyn Coker Ross: And you mentioned that the other person, you, satchel Cole, she was non-binary, correct? Correct. How does that play into it? Was she.
Intersectionally embedding herself in lgbtq plus organizations or
Dr. Matthew Oware: so, yeah, so during my research about Satchel, her sort of name before she changed it to Satchel was Jennifer Benton. The research that I, that I did when looking at their background, there was nothing about them sort of being. A prominent member of an L-G-B-T-Q.
I think they, I think they associated. With, but they weren’t a prominent member. Oh. Like they were for, so Satchel was one of the leaders of the Indie Black Lives Matter organization. Okay. But there, based on my research, I didn’t see that they were a part, a prominent leader in any L-G-B-T-Q group.
Although, although they may have associated with those, uh, organizations.
Dr. Carolyn Coker Ross: It’s interesting, so the racist one dimensional and problematic representations of black women womanhood. You say that these individuals perform are remnants of slavery and Jim Crow, so some people might wonder like, how’s what they did Racist.
Dr. Matthew Oware: Yeah. So, so, so this is a question. Uh, there’s another way of sort of asking this question. How is this cultural appropriation and not cultural appreciation? The reason, the reason that I’m calling it cultural appropriation, the reason that I’m calling it reverse passing. The reason that I’m saying that as problematic is that they are using their performances as black women for their own financial benefit.
Yeah. That is, they are not. Being true to the cause. Uh, this is sort of the title of the article of Allyship. If they really sort of believed in social justice, if they believed in equality for. Black people then. Then they could be white allies, right?
Dr. Carolyn Coker Ross: Why not?
Dr. Matthew Oware: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. They could be white allies, right?
But my argument is that they sort of commandeer black women’s bodies in order to. Make financial and personal gain, right. To obtain a Netflix series or to obtain tenure, right, which was the case with, uh, Jessica Krug or to be a leader of a Black Lives Matter organization, which was the case with Satchel Colt, right?
They could have done these things, uh, in allyship on the sidelines as partners, but, but they used. Presentations of black womanhood to gay financial benefits. And so that’s that for me. That’s why this is racist. That’s why this is cultural appropriation and not cultural appreciation.
Dr. Carolyn Coker Ross: Yeah. I love the distinction between those two.
I wanna switch gears just a bit because I’m dying to know about your work with, um, millennial rap artist and. What do they have to say that’s different than the previous generations of rap artists? And I’m interested ’cause my son is a music producer in New York and I’m always being told about.
You know, new artists coming up, they, they’re fascinating, but your book is all about that. So what, what is that?
Dr. Matthew Oware: That’s right. Thank you for the opportunity to talk about my book. So I really use, um, rap music as an opportunity to have broader discussions about masculinity, gender, race, um, sexual orientation and other class and other elements that we.
Commonly talk about in sociology, the reason that rap music is such a powerful tool to discuss these things is that, um, artists really sort of articulate, they’re on the front lines of articulating what’s happening within popular culture, right? So I want to use that music to have these bigger discussions.
And one of the things that. I noticed in focusing on millennial artists as opposed to sort of previous artists is one women had a more prominent voice. We had more women rap artists as opposed to previous generations. Um, they articulated notions of feminism to a greater degree than say, in previous generations of rap artists.
Also, there’s sort of a, a. Bigger complexity, a broader range of various, um, gender representation, sexual orientation, uh, for example, Lil Nas X as a sort of a rapper who Oh, yeah. Prominent. Yeah. Um, and so we, we had more representation across different categories of sex, of sexuality, of gender, and of race.
And in this. In this diversity, we had a diversity of thought, a diversity of expression, of different types of identity. So one of the arguments that I’m making is that, you know, rap music for millennials was more complex. It, it created greater layers of complexity around how we discuss racial identity, of how we discuss whiteness, of how we discuss gender, of how we discuss masculinity.
Right. So you had. Artists who actually express vulnerability in their music. Yeah. Um, that may have differed from previous generations. And so I’m essentially using the music as a window into our society, to American society.
Dr. Carolyn Coker Ross: Yeah. I I think that’s fascinating. We may have to have you back to talk about your book more.
I just think Kendrick Lamar’s performance at the Super Bowl was like a master class. In political. I dunno whether you wanna call it satire, but he was absolutely fruit telling from. The first moment he got on that stage, it was absolutely there.
Dr. Matthew Oware: A perfect example. That’s right. Kendrick Lamore at the Super Bowl.
Dr. Carolyn Coker Ross: Right? Yeah. And also just that they are taking on some topics that have heretofore not been talked about, even in black culture, for example, um, one of my, uh, YouTube videos I wanted to profile Kendrick Lamar’s song. I Am Sober Mother where he. Talks about kind of, I mean, he does, I don’t know if he says the words intergenerational trauma, but he’s talking about how generations of trauma impact have impacted him and how they could impact his children.
That’s right. That’s a first really, I think in, in any music. So it’s really the leading edge of some topics that are really coming to the forefront nowadays.
Dr. Matthew Oware: That’s right. And, and him doing that allows the rest of us to have convers, to have that conversation. Right. Because we see this popular artist talking about intergenerational trauma.
Also, Kendrick talks about, um, being an alcoholic or, or grappling with alcoholism. Also, he talks about other infidelity, right? And so what that allows us to do is listeners, is to have those. Sort of delicate conversations and, and, and to be able to grapple with them, right? And so art artists, some rap artists, they’re not only political, right?
But they’re dealing with other elements that need to be discussed.
Dr. Carolyn Coker Ross: They’re vulnerable about them. That’s, it’s coming out like, I’m that man. That’s what I’m the tough guy.
Dr. Matthew Oware: That’s what it, which was a common trope. And rap music, right? Being a tough guy, but now we have artists that talk it exactly what you said that talk about being vulnerable, that talk about dealing with depression, right?
That talk about dealing with mental health and, and I think that allows the rest of us to more easily broach those subjects. I know I do that with my students, right? Yeah. For me, this music, this genre provides an opportunity for us to have so many. Deeper level conversations. Right. And I can, so, um, I remember giving an example of, um, and some of your, um, listeners might know these artists giving an example of Cardi B and Megan, Megan Thee Stallion.
These are two female rap artists, and they had a song called WAP is sort of a, a graphic, a sexually graphic song. But I remember asking my students like. Is this feminist or how do we understand feminism by listening to this music? And the conversation really sort of launched when we talk about this song.
In the past, if I wanted my students to talk about feminism, if I came in and said, Hey, let’s talk about feminism. Let’s talk about this reading that we did that talks about feminism. Everyone would sit on their hands because, or look down or not engage because it was seen as too academic. But now I can point to Cardi B Megan Thee Stallion, right?
That song, other songs. And we can, we can have a conversation about feminism. What does feminism mean? What does black feminism mean? Right? What is the matrix of Domination by Patricia Hill Collins. Right? And so we can have these bigger theoretical conversations because of this pop culture stuff. Because they’ve opened the door.
Really? ’cause they’ve opened the door and the students are, well, at least the students that, you know, uh, take my class, they’re listening to this stuff.
Dr. Carolyn Coker Ross: Oh no, I. To the same thing, you know, I feel the same way. Yeah. I remember when, uh, the Kendrick Lamar, uh, song about. Intergenerational trauma or came out, my son texted me right away, mom. ’cause he hears me talk about it all the time, you know? Right. I did a TEDx on intergenerational trauma and he, and he’s like, mom, finally some somebody else talking about it. He talked to you and suddenly he was very interested. Suddenly.
Dr. Matthew Oware: Now it’s cool. Yeah. Very, very cool. So as a matter of fact, I’m gonna get your book and send it to him.
Dr. Carolyn Coker Ross: I think he would love that.
Dr. Matthew Oware: That’s really interesting. So I appreciate that. Thank you. Well, I hate to say it, but it’s, we’ve come to the end of the show and I really appreciate having you on. It’s fun. And I have, people will read your, your chapter, how Not to Be an Ally, and also your book on rap music. So.
This was absolutely fun. Thank you for the, again, the opportunity to talk about my chapter in this wonderful book and also to talk about my own research. I, I greatly appreciate it.
Dr. Matthew Oware: You’re very welcome.
Dr. Carolyn Coker Ross: Thanks for listening. Please subscribe to the Inclusive Minds podcast so we can let you know when the next great guest comes on.
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