In this episode, I talk with Janelle Johnson, a licensed marriage and family therapist and disability advocate, she sheds light on the critical yet often overlooked intersection of race, neurodiversity, and ableism. Janelle’s work centers on understanding how ableism, historically intertwined with racism, impacts individuals with autism and other neurodivergent conditions, particularly within underrepresented minority communities. She discusses the challenges of underdiagnosis, the cultural nuances in symptom presentation, and how systemic biases perpetuate disparities in access to care and understanding. Her insights are crucial for healthcare and educational professionals seeking to provide culturally competent and inclusive support.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- How ableism and racism are historically and systemically linked.
- The unique challenges faced by individuals with intersectional identities, where neurodiversity co-exists with minority status.
- Why autism and other neurodivergent conditions often go undiagnosed in underrepresented minority clients.
- The cultural variations in how autism and neurodiversity symptoms present.
- Practical strategies to dismantle ableist and racist practices in professional settings.
Janelle Johnson, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, is a wife, mother, and the Founder of Bridges Family Life Center – a Neurodiversity Clinic and Consulting practice in North Carolina. An award-winning educator and disability advocate with lived experience, she is also the first Black President of the NC Association of Marriage and Family Therapy.
Mrs. Johnson is now a doctoral candidate at NC State University where she researches advocacy interventions for caregivers of Black autistic students, as well as approaches to institutional policy change that center BIPOC neurodivergent experiences. Janelle provides tailored equity and inclusion training, consulting and speaking internationally. In her free time you’ll find her eating delicious food, hiking with her family, and watching k-dramas.
Janelle Johnson’s Links:
Follow me on LinkedIn:
Linkedin.com/in/thefamilyfanatic
Connect for therapy, training and consulting at my practice Bridges Family Life Center
Dr Carolyn’s Links
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carolyn-coker-ross-md-mph-ceds-c-7b81176/
TEDxPleasantGrove talk: https://youtu.be/ljdFLCc3RtM
To buy “Antiblackness and the Stories of Authentic Allies” – bit.ly/3ZuSp1T
Carolyn Coker Ross
Hi everyone, and welcome to the inclusive minds podcast. I have a wonderful special guest today who is an author of the book, Janelle. You want to hold up the book,
Janelle Johnson
Sure, sure. Well, first of all, thank you. Thank you for having me. I’m glad to talk with you all about this loved writing this book chapter, my lived experience kind of drives all the work that I do. And when you’re a multiply marginalized person, someone that has
Carolyn Coker Ross
which I’m a co editor of anti blackness and the stories of authentic allies. So her chapter is fascinating, and I really want to was excited to have her on the show today. So let me tell you a little bit about Janelle. Janelle Johnson is a licensed, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. She’s a wife, mother and the founder of bridges Family Life Center, a neurodiversity clinic and consulting practice in North Carolina. She is an award winning educator and disability advocate with lived experience. She is also the first black president of the North Carolina Association of Marriage and Family Therapy. Mrs. Johnson is now a doctoral candidate at North Carolina State University, where she researches advocacy interventions for caregivers of black autistic students, as well as approaches to institutional policy change that center bipoc neurodivergent experiences Janelle provides tailored equity and inclusion training, consulting and speaking internationally in her free time, you’ll find her doing what I love to do, eating delicious food, hiking with her family and watching K dramas. Does everybody know what K dramas are? Because I had to look it up. Is it a popular term
Janelle Johnson
Korean dramas? Yeah. And most people know what squid
Carolyn Coker Ross
squid game is? Oh, yes. We all know squid game. Squid game is about the most popular K drama right now, yeah. And it’s, it came back not too long ago with the sequel, right? Okay, so let’s get into your chapter. In your chapter, you write about your advocacy work with around disability, so tell us a little bit about what your story is and how does your lived experience challenge kind of commonly held assumptions about disability in the black community.
Janelle Johnson
multiple forms of neuro divergence and multiple forms of disability. That means that a lot of things impact you, and so that’s why my fingers are in a little bit of everything.
Carolyn Coker Ross
Can I ask you, for people who aren’t clear about what you mean when you say neuro divergence, because it’s a fairly new term, sure.
Janelle Johnson
So neuro divergence is a term that was coined by an activist named Cassian assassin masu, and they defined it as a brain that significantly diverges from what is typical, socially acceptable, that’s all. So it’s a very broad go. Sure, it’s a very broad term. The alignment with the term and the way that we have defined diagnoses in mental health and in health care, you usually see alignment with an umbrella of diagnoses like autism, ADHD, dyslexia, but even other things that people don’t think about that are part of the neurodivergent umbrella, like OCD, PTSD, and Even some neurological physical conditions like cerebral palsy.
Carolyn Coker Ross
Okay, so it’s the the neuro divergence is an umbrella term that includes a lot of different diagnoses. Then definitely it
Janelle Johnson
is meant to be a community building term.
Carolyn Coker Ross
What does that mean? How does it How does it build community? Are you saying it gathers everybody under one tent. Is that basically, it
Janelle Johnson
okay? Exactly, gathering folks that have a similar experience so that they can be strengthened and empowered in community together. Okay,
Carolyn Coker Ross
so, how does your lived experience and challenge? What normally people think of about disability in the black community,
Janelle Johnson
sure. So in the black community, these words, just like you’re saying right now, a lot of these words and terms are very new. They’re new to the public in general, but particularly in the black community, a lot of folks are just hearing or just learning the word neurodiversity or. Or divergence for the first time, they’re just learning about autism, that it exists and that black people have it. Black people are autistic. So I think the the challenge is we develop our understanding of of an experience based on what we’re exposed to. And most people have an ex they’re exposed to neuro divergence. I’ll speak specifically about autism, because that’s like the thing that we have the most research on and understanding of. Most people have an understanding of autism that’s based on what they see in the media. So they’re thinking of everything from Sheldon to Rain Man, you know, like these, these extreme, extremely different representations of what autism is, and in the media, you don’t see representations of black autistic people, black ADHD or black folks that have neurodivergent conditions.
Carolyn Coker Ross
Wasn’t there a comedian who recently came out and said he was diagnosed with autism. I think there have been a couple people in the black community celebrities who have recently talked about autism.
Janelle Johnson
Sure, I don’t know about the comedian off the top of my head,
Carolyn Coker Ross
is it Chris Rock? Maybe, or I could be.
Janelle Johnson
No, I don’t, I don’t know. I know that I remember reading about that it was a possibility, or maybe he was seeking diagnosis, or something like that. It wouldn’t be surprising. I’ll say that, but, but yes, there, thankfully, we’re starting to see more folks who are coming out as autistic, that are adults, they’re securing diagnoses later in life. That’s definitely my story. I self diagnosed when in 2017 and my story is very unique, because I’m a therapist, right? So I actually can diagnose autism and do diagnose autism. And so I was sitting across from a black man, and he was textbook, but not textbook at the same time, and I knew after the first 30 or 40 minutes with him, that I was going to provide a preliminary autism diagnosis, but I also knew that I had never had this experience of diagnosing a black person. I had diagnosed white people before, but not a black person, and I also knew that what I was looking at was a mirror of myself. And yeah, it was a shock. So I kept myself together for the session, and then I walked outside, got in my car, called my mom, crying like Mom, how did I not know this? How did I not see this? I’m definitely an autistic human. So that’s kind of a story about my initial diagnosis before I got one from a therapist. Well,
Carolyn Coker Ross
you mentioned, though that you have diagnosed autism and non bipoc people, white people. What’s the difference, though? Like, why was this so different for you Sure.
Janelle Johnson
So I think it’s more so the representation of how the symptoms appear, that’s
Carolyn Coker Ross
what I’m asking about. Like, what are some of the symptoms that might show up in a black person that would be different in someone else who’s not black? Good
Janelle Johnson
question. So for one, for what I have seen in black clients specifically, is the way that stimming happens. Stemming is repetitive behavior that that person’s like, calming, yeah, so rocking, flapping hands, but, but everyone stems right? We like, bounce our leg when we’re a little bit nervous, that’s a stem. So for black people, I found that some of the repetitive behavior is culturally influenced. So I’ve had clients who they they can’t get a beat out of their head, and they repeat the beat repeatedly. They might beat box a lot or or sing the the rhythm over and over again. And that’s a rip it and it, it ends up being a representation of the stem that is culturally relevant, and so we overlook it. But the way that it, the person is using it, it’s actually a stem. It’s actually a
Carolyn Coker Ross
a culturally influenced representation of the symptom. So that’s what one example they’re using it to calm themselves. Yep, yeah. Because for most people, I mean, another term for that is the ear worm. For most. Having that in your head is kind of disturbing and annoying and anxiety provoking, but yeah, with autism, it may be calming. Then yes, yes. Give me one other symptom that you see in your black patients with autism.
Janelle Johnson
Um, well, I diagnose a lot of black adults, and so something that I noticed in black adults that’s very common for folks that are managing autism, is they have a long history of various mental health diagnoses that are actually rooted in a neurodivergent condition like autism, but everyone’s overlooked it, and so they have a list like they’ll have an autoimmune disorder, they’ll have diabetes, they’ll have a diagnosis of depression or anxiety or PTSD bipolar. It’ll be this long list, like 10 different things. And so typically, for black people, and this is all all an issue that happens with all black folks, we are over diagnosed or under diagnosed? Yeah, it’s very rare that we’re, you know, kind of on point, appropriately diagnosed. Yeah, appropriately right. So for for Neuro divergent folks, though, if all of those things are actually relevant, and the and the client can actually point to like, Yes, this is showing up in my life, then I point to like. Is there an underlying neuro divergent condition? Is this autism? Possibly because, typically, autistic folks have higher CO occurrence of all kinds of things that I just listed.
Carolyn Coker Ross
Most of the things you mentioned are in the literature and the research also associated with childhood trauma, which is, as you know, very high in black children. So how does autism fit in with the history of trauma? Is autism more likely to occur with okay, yes,
Janelle Johnson
definitely. Autistic folks are significantly more likely to experience traumatic events like abuse, for instance, but also they’re a lot more likely to experience experience like, for instance, sensory issues. If they have a sensory issue that turns into a traumatic event for them, that might not turn that might not present as PTSD for somebody else, but it presents as PTSD for them, because you
Carolyn Coker Ross
have to clarify sensory event, because that is sure sure that is psychology speak,
Janelle Johnson
no problem, a sense, a sensory event. So a lot of autistic people are sensory seeking. They’re seeking out ways to calm themselves or or experience enjoyment through their senses. So they might chew on things they might need to bounce and jump, a lot like different things like that. Other other autistic folks may be sensory avoidance. So loud noises are problematic, bright lights are problematic. It kind of depends, right? So for some folks, autistic folks, we might have a sensory event that causes us trauma. I’ll give you an example. So let’s say someone goes, a child is in a classroom that’s loud, yes, and so they start, they start refusing to go to school, avoiding school. And so for us, it’s like, Hey, why aren’t you going to school? Like, it’s not a big deal. Everybody else can handle the loud noises. But for them, they’re experiencing a sense of intense discomfort, all the way to panic internally when they have that sensory event in that classroom where someone just randomly blurts out a loud noise, and they’re not prepared for it, okay, to the point where they start avoiding school.
Carolyn Coker Ross
Yeah, I say, how does it help them to get a diagnosis of autism? Autism,
Janelle Johnson
it helps us. It helps to get an autism, a diagnosis. Autism diagnosis for several reasons. One, well, I’ll say this, it usually helps. I need to clarify that it usually helps to have a diagnosis. So it helps because, one, there are so many services that are available that you will not qualify for. You can’t get access to without the diagnosis. If you are seeking accommodations at school or at work, you can’t get those with, with with no evidence, right, right? That makes sense. So that’s huge. Two different types of care that is available, medical care. Health care that is available, it’s covered by insurance, but it’s not covered by insurance if you don’t have a diagnosis.
Carolyn Coker Ross
Okay, point taken. Well, let’s move on a little bit, because I have a lot of more questions for you. In your chapter, you mentioned that ableism and racism are the quote, unquote, Wonder Twins of systemic oppression. First of all, that is a wonderful phrase. I’m jealous. I didn’t think of it myself. But tell us exactly, what does it mean? The Wonder Twins of systemic oppression.
Janelle Johnson
Sure, racism is a lot newer is, is is more recent, a more recent development in human history than ableism is so ableism, we have evidence of ableism in ancient Greece, if you think about the if you think about the Spartan community they had laws, laws that required that babies were inspected when they were born, okay, and when they were born, if they had any defect, they had to be discarded, right? Yeah. So this is, this is ancient Greece, where we have documentation of that. So racism was not had race had not been created yet. Yeah, right, Race. Race wasn’t created until, uh, much later. I think race is maybe like 600 years old, or something like that. Yeah. So when they when there’s a wonderful book called race craft. I highly recommend it if you want to understand the the foundation of race. But when, when race was being created, the concept of race, they used, they used ableism to create race evidence that as evidence that race was something that needed to be created and used to keep black folks down, Africans down so black people, Africans have lower IQ. Africans need to be supported because they are not able to do this thus. And so it was very much embedded in this idea that, because they’re not able the
Carolyn Coker Ross
inferior race, because they are inferior, yeah, so then I just never thought of that as ableism. That’s really profound in a way. And I know that it was all of those myths were created to keep people enslaved, for sure, and, you know, perpetrated the, you know, the a lot of the tenants of white supremacy right to but to compare to ableism, it’s really very, I, found that very interesting, so I appreciate that. That’s great. Okay, well, let’s let me ask you something else in your chapter you you mentioned that the American Disabilities Act was finalized in 1990 and was the culmination of about 25 years of activism. Now, obviously I lived through those 25 years, and I remember how difficult it was to get people on board to understand how important things like having handicap parking and so on were, but you talk about, again, the tent being a lot bigger that the ADA also covers a wide array of disabilities, like cancer, diabetes, HIV, autism, cerebral palsy and deafness. Can you say more about the importance of this act?
Janelle Johnson
Oh man, this is really relevant for me, in particular, because even today, right now, I’m after this call. I’m going to get on a call about disabled activists and advocates gathering to support section 504 not being abolished right now, section 504 is at risk of being abolished in a court case Texas versus Bucha. That’s what’s happening right now. That is section 504 section 504 is the first, is the first piece of civil rights legislation that gave disabled folks rights. And it speaks to not having I want
Carolyn Coker Ross
to stop you just a minute, and you said that it’s the first piece of civil rights legislation, because, again, most people think of civil rights legislation as relating to race, you know, relating to right people getting rights. But the Disability Act was part of civil rights legislation. That’s right. Very important,
Janelle Johnson
very much. So another, another, another hit to the idea that racism and ableism are Wonder Twins. And so yes, as such, the work to dismantle them is in tandem. Yeah. So section 504, was actually put into law, but then not implemented. And so the longest, the longest occupation of a federal building in a protest was done by disabled community. They were in protest for three days, no food, no water. They cut off the lights, everything. They cut off all access to the building. They stayed there for three days, the Black Panthers actually were involved. They brought the activist food.
Carolyn Coker Ross
So they were protesting what they were protesting
Janelle Johnson
the implementation of section 504 so section 504 meant that the that folks that received organizations, government, schools, healthcare providers, anyone that received federal funds had to, had to make sure that their services were accessible, that they were not discriminating against disabled people. Okay, gotcha. And so that was not being implemented. And so that’s what led to the protest.
Carolyn Coker Ross
And your call coming up is about the same topic,
Janelle Johnson
yep, section 504 the there are 17 states who have sued saying that because section 504 was updated last year, they don’t like the updates. But instead of them combating just the updates, they want to abolish section 504 entirely,
Carolyn Coker Ross
which would mean that schools and other public places would not be handicapped accessible.
Janelle Johnson
They would not be required to be right. They would be Yep, it would, once again, it would no longer be illegal to discriminate against disabled folks if you are a receiver of federal funds.
Carolyn Coker Ross
Shocking, yeah, yeah. What do you think is the likelihood that that will go through?
Janelle Johnson
I’m not really sure. I’m looking forward to learning more about it today on the call. I’m trying to keep folks informed on during my through my social media outlets and stuff, because a lot of people don’t know, like this impacts your children, and so as a person that is disabled, but I’m also raising a disabled child who has higher support needs than I do. These things are really relevant.
Carolyn Coker Ross
Wow. Okay, well, I got, I was surprised, surprised to learn in your chapter that Harriet Tubman, who most people know because there was a movie at least, that she also was disabled, that she had seizures and chronic pain and narcolepsy, and she was also a radical disability activist that was so thing to find out. So, yeah, I mean, it seems like, you know, race is often at the forefront, because that’s the first thing people notice in most, most black people or people of color. But you know, disability isn’t always that visible,
Janelle Johnson
right, right,
Carolyn Coker Ross
yeah, and you went through most of your life not knowing that you have autism, for example. So, right, yeah, interesting. Anyway, I want you to tell us about your three a framework, because I think this is very powerful. The three a framework is acknowledge, ask and act, and how does it specifically address the needs of black, disabled clients?
Janelle Johnson
So at my practice bridges Family Life Center, we had been we’re we’ve been there for about seven and a half years, but the time that I created three a we had been open for about two, two and a half years, and I noticed that I was seeing the same pattern. So I would say about 60 to 70% of our clients are black and brown. It’s the majority of who we see. And there was this dynamic that was happening in families, particularly among heterosexual couples, that the division of labor was causing challenges. And really, this is a this is a issue of often in in black families, what I saw was this was an issue of patriarchy and gender divide, right? So I created, I created three a to help couples be able to first repair. There was so much there was so much disagreement, so much hurt, so much pain that it happened amongst the couple for however many. Months or years before they came and they were trying to just like, gloss over it and move on. And I’m like, you gotta actually fix it. You gotta repair your relationship before you can come together and begin to come up with a solution that works for your family. So that’s why I created three a acknowledge that something is going on. Ask if you’re the person that, if you’re the person that was the offender, ask the person that was offended. Hey, like, what can I do different? How can I do this better? How can I fix this and then act make sure that you do that thing. If you if, if someone asks you, hey, I really need you to support me in this way, and then you don’t do it. How is that going to help the help the relationship repair? There was just
Carolyn Coker Ross
recently, on the, on the, on, I think NPR, where the leader of Turkey was concerned about the low birth rate. Did you hear that story and how they were saying that women were, I think the birth rate was 1.5 children and so, so their birth rate is dropping. And they went out and talked to these Turkish women, and the number one thing they said was, I have to do everything, you know, I have to clean, I have to cook, I have to go to work, I have to take care of the kids, and my husband doesn’t do anything. Why would I want to do bring in, you know, have two more kids and, yeah, have to do even more. So that’s, that’s was another ramification of what you’re talking about. But does the three a framework have a specific benefit to black disabled clients, yes.
Janelle Johnson
So the the framework, I later expanded it about two years later, I expanded it using a using a theory that’s prevalent for black disabled folks called discrete and so the reason I expanded it was because I wanted to center on the concept of intersectionality and power that there are, there are considerations that we need to make clear that exist in society, that men have more power than women in general, that that that white people in general tend to have more power than black and brown people, that that straight people tend to have more power than LGBTQ plus folks like there’s these power dynamics that exist, and so when we’re trying to repair, if we ignore the power dynamics that we still don’t repair, yeah, um. And so I give
Carolyn Coker Ross
us an example of how you would use three a in that, sure, sure.
Janelle Johnson
So um, in the book, I talked about my experience with the client. And the client came in. This was a black woman. The client came in with a history of of abuse, sexual assault, okay, and so she was there because her employer was firing her, because she refused to go to work, because a colleague had assaulted her physically, wow, and she refused to go back to work with this colleague and and so They ended up firing her. But what they didn’t know was that she had this assault history, sexual assault that had happened with the same job. Sexual assault had happened at the same at the same job. She had been with this organization for many years. So when we met um, our interactions were interesting, because she was very hesitant to go to therapy. Um, didn’t, didn’t know whether she should be there or not, but also she was in this situation and didn’t know what else to do. Um And she, she and I had a couple of run ins because she was uneasy, and also because I presented myself in a way where I was, like, super professional and, yeah, in the in their traditional sense, and a little distant and a little standoffish, and that wasn’t working for her and what she needed. So we used three a multiple times. I used three a multiple times when we had disagreements.
There was one time where she said that she wanted to. To she was going to pursue suing her employer, and this was a federal government employer, and I was hesitant. I’m like, Are you sure you want to do that? I don’t know if that’s a good idea. Like you got kids and you’re on the border of homelessness, and it didn’t go well. We had, we had to have a discussion, right? And so I ended up the next session. I came back, and I use three a I acknowledge, like, Hey, I know that our last discussion didn’t go really well. And how can we address this together? And that’s the Ask part. How can we address this together? What could I do differently? What is it that you need from me? And she answered those questions, and I did it. So I just went. She said that she wanted me to just go with what she wanted to do, that she didn’t want to push back.
And I said, Fine, let’s go with it. This lady ended up being homeless and all of that, and I just went with it. I just said, I believe you. I’m going to support you. She had some major health issues. Had to have major surgery. It was a lot, yeah, but she ended up coming out of it and won the court case. Yep, won the court case. And we were we worked together for two years, and I was glad that I that we were able to still work together and continue to repair, because she needed someone that could support her.
Carolyn Coker Ross
Yeah, well, that’s a great story first of all, and I, I think the three a framework. It could work in so many different situations. And I love the way you used it with your client. Well, how can health care professionals, or even educational professional professionals who work with black disabled people have, you know, develop more. What do you call it? Anti ableist beliefs and practices? Let me, let me. I stop right now and just have them cut that. So how can health care and educational professionals who work with black disabled people develop more anti ableist beliefs and practices?
Janelle Johnson
Great question. First, I’ll start with what is anti ableism? So ableism is discrimination against disabled folks, and anti ableism is movement action that propels folks to grow in their knowledge of what ableism is and their knowledge and how to dismantle it and to actually make moves in action to do so. So that’s what anti anti ableism is. So how can someone grow in anti ableist practices that works with black and brown, disabled clients? First, the most important thing is developing cultural humility. It’s a practice of understanding that you don’t know it all, and the way that you have were raised, or the way that you approach life, your your cultural influences for how things should be done, that that’s not the only way, and that nobody has all the right ways, right so that’s number one, is examining the way that other people approach life, other people approach their problems, so
Carolyn Coker Ross
being culturally curious too. Yes,
Janelle Johnson
exactly, exactly. Yeah, right. And that can be something as simple as my favorite thing, watching media from other cultures, yes,
Carolyn Coker Ross
movies and shows,
Janelle Johnson
yes, yes. You learn so much. And that’s not the only way that you should learn about other cultures, but that’s one of the easiest ways that you can right? And so that’s that’s for one developing your awareness and your curiosity for other cultures and development.
Carolyn Coker Ross
You don’t see a lot of people in the media who are disabled, though. You know, you don’t see a lot
Janelle Johnson
starting. It’s starting to change a bit. It’s starting to change a bit. But you’re right. You don’t see a whole lot of that. Thankfully, if you which is the next thing that I’m going to say is. Um, following, not thought leaders and and scholars and content creators who are part of the communities that you’re trying to learn about. If you spend time in community with other disabled folks, particularly black disabled folks, you’ll find all kinds of things. Oh, my goodness, we are out there talking about all kinds of stuff that people just don’t know because they’re not a part of the community, so they don’t know what’s happening, and they don’t know that there’s that there’s they don’t know that there are movies that are being made or shows that are being created about disability, that they could be learning from documentaries like crip camp, love crip camp favorites,
Carolyn Coker Ross
crip camp, that was awesome.
Janelle Johnson
They talk about the 504 sit in in crip camp. So, so, yeah, the, the, the, another good way is to find thought leaders, scholars and content creators who are in those areas and learn from them. And then lastly, it is, it is really about being purposeful, purposeful about forming real relationships with people who are different from you. Do you have any black, disabled friends? Ask yourself that question. Yeah. Try to find some also try to try to identify
Carolyn Coker Ross
someone on the street and say, will you be my friend?
Janelle Johnson
Well, no, I think it’s, I think, I think a big part of it is disability identity development, right? I’ve been disabled my whole life, I didn’t identify as disabled until nine years ago. Yeah. Dr Sammy shop, she has a book called Black disability politics, excellent book, but she talks about her recent disability identity development. So there’s a lot of us who are disabled. I would say that my mom is a disabled person, but she doesn’t consider herself that, you know so well, that’s part of it is alarming that as well, a lot of
Carolyn Coker Ross
the disability people, people with disability, aren’t obvious, like you could be sitting next to somebody. I mean, if they’re in a wheelchair, that’s obvious, but if they are, maybe autistic, it’s not so obvious. So I think probably many of us have friends with disabilities who, you know, who don’t consider themselves disabled, like people with ADHD, for example, you know. And anyway, I want to ask you one last question. You’ve been really great today. And I, like I said, I loved your chapter. I hope people will get the book and read it, because it’s wonderful and explains all of these concepts in more depth. But how do you react personally to the resistance and pushback that you get for your work? And that’s happening now more and more, you know, because of the change in the political climate,
Janelle Johnson
sure. Oh, man, that’s such a great question. First, I allow myself to react like it’s okay to be sad and it’s okay to be a little bit discouraged for for a beat. It’s okay. Yep, it’s okay to be angry all of that, like let the emotions flow first. So yes, I allow myself to feel what I feel in the first place, and then after I let myself feel what I feel, I say, you know, this is three a again, three A has an internal perspective. Again, I acknowledge what I feel, and then I ask myself, okay, what do I need? Yeah, and what can I do? What do I need for myself? And then what can I do? Part of like decolonized approaches to therapy is empowerment, right? So it’s not just about helping someone to feel better by teaching them tools and skills, but it’s also about helping them feel and tap into their own empowerment, so that the activism or the advocacy gives them strength, right? So I do things like attend meetings that I’m getting ready to attend after this and build community with folks who are trying to understand and advocate for their rights.
Carolyn Coker Ross
And it’s a long term process. I mean, we all need to take the long view in some ways, while still being active in the short view. Because I think it’s easy to just sit back and say, I can’t do anything, and I’m just going to be sit on the sidelines and be upset, you know, right? But that’s not good for our mental health. It certainly is. And I have a lot of patients that I talk to every day who are very just, just very upset. They don’t know what to do with their feelings, you know. So I think this is a. Helpful. What you’re talking about. Is there anything last minute that I didn’t cover with you, or that you like to tell us about before we end the podcast?
Janelle Johnson
I will just end with saying that these topics may seem heavy and they are, but also I encourage folks in my work, I encourage folks to embrace and center joy in the things that they do. Real joy. Joy is not dependent on what’s happening outside of you or the circumstances. Joy is a choice. It’s a decision to pursue pleasure and peace and calm, things that excite you, things that bring you wonders, the decision to do those things on purpose, and that’s the stuff that we have to make sure that we always fall back on so that we can do the work for the long haul.
Carolyn Coker Ross
That’s very true. Well, thank you so much. Janelle, it’s been a pleasure talking to you this morning and good luck on your call.
Janelle Johnson
Thank you so much.
