Welcome to The Inclusive Minds Podcast! Today, we are joined by the insightful Rev. Kris Watson, Esq. one of the authors of the powerful chapter “The Maniacal Imagination and Moral Ineptitude of the Church: The Construction and Sustainment of White Skin Supremacy” from the book “Anti-Blackness and the Stories of Authentic Allies Lived Experiences in the Fight Against Institutionalized Racism.”
Rev. Watson, a visionary leader and founder of Nurturing Justice, Inc., brings her unique perspective as a former Assistant District Attorney, certified mediator, skilled facilitator, and Reverend to this crucial conversation.
In this episode, you’ll hear about:
- Rev. Dr. Watson’s personal journey and the experiences that led her to this work.
- A deep dive into the historical role of the church in the creation and maintenance of white skin supremacy, as explored in her compelling chapter.
- Reflections on the complexities of dismantling racism within religious institutions.
- The mission and vision of Nurturing Justice, Inc., in fostering education and community building for racial justice.
- Insights into the pervasive nature of systemic racism and the importance of understanding its historical roots.
Prepare for an eye-opening and thought-provoking discussion that challenges conventional narratives and encourages a deeper understanding of the historical and ongoing impact of white skin supremacy.
Rev. Kris Watson, Esq. is a visionary leader and founder of Nurturing Justice, Inc., a non-profit focused on dismantling racial hierarchies through education and community building. She holds degrees from Vassar College, Fordham University School of Law, and a Master of Divinity from New York Theological Seminary. With over 35 years of experience, Kris has served as an Assistant District Attorney in New York for several years and is a certified mediator and skilled facilitator.
Kris Watson’s Links:
IG: @NurturingJustice
FB: (9) Facebook
Website: Nurturing Justice – Nurturing Justice Through Relational Transformation
TRANSFORMATIONAL REMNANT A loving community building multi-dimensional spiritual resilience for such a time as this.
https://us06web.zoom.us/j/87688826404 Meeting on the 2nd Thursday of each month For more information email: kris@nurturngjustice.org
Dr Carolyn’s Links
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carolyn-coker-ross-md-mph-ceds-c-7b81176/
TEDxPleasantGrove talk: https://youtu.be/ljdFLCc3RtM
To buy “Antiblackness and the Stories of Authentic Allies” – bit.ly/3ZuSp1T
Carolyn Ross MD: Hi, everybody, Dr. Carolyn Coker Ross and welcome to inclusive minds. Podcast I’m here today with Dr. Kris Watson, and she is one of the authors in our book, anti-blackness and the stories of authentic allies lived experiences in the fight against institutionalized racism. And she has written a chapter that’s really fascinating, so interesting! And the title itself is stunning. It’s the maniacal imagination and moral ineptitude of the Church, the construction and sustainment of white skin supremacy. Let me tell you a little bit about Kris Watson. Reverend Kris Watson, Esquire, is a visionary leader and founder of nurturing justice, incorporated a nonprofit focused on dismantling racial hierarchies through education and community building. She holds degrees from Vassar College, Fordham University School of Law, and a master’s of divinity from New York Theological Seminar. With over 35 years of experience. She has served as an assistant district attorney in New York for several years, and is a certified mediator and skilled facilitator. Wow! You’ve had a very interesting career. So jealous. You went to Vassar. That’s where I wanted to go to college. I hope you had a good experience there.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Well, it was an interesting experience. But thank you, Carolyn, I want to 1st say, thank you so much for having me join this podcast it’s always a pleasure to see you and to talk about the work of dismantling the hierarchy of human value in the human family. It’s my passion. It’s my mission, it’s my purpose. It’s so. I feel like I’m really in my purpose work. And I’m grateful to God for that, because many people go through life and don’t ever find their purpose. Carolyn Ross MD: It’s so true. It causes a lot of misery when when you can’t.
Living from your purpose, if you don’t mind. I know you’ve had quite a journey with the church, you know. Sounds like you started out in the legal field, and then became a minister or reverend.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Yes.
Carolyn Ross MD: But there’s a lot of lot. Don’t worry.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: There’s a lot of story.
Carolyn Ross MD: From there to there. So.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Yes.
Carolyn Ross MD: If you can. Can you tell us a little bit about your lived experience, language.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Thank you for asking. So I I was born and raised in the Episcopalian Church. My sister and I went to an Episcopalian private school in New York from Junior Kindergarten through 12th grade. We both graduated from there and you know, and I really, I loved the Episcopalian Church for all of its pomp and circumstance, and all of its pageantry, and the the incense and the costumes, you know the bishops, and so forth. And then, you know, when I went to college, I started exploring the Bible in different ways. But I got involved in activism in college and anyway. Long story short, very long story short, you know, my journey led me into exploring various aspects of faith and spirituality. Right? So I studied science of mind. I explored Buddhism. I you know, I just did like, really was interested in anything that could enhance my spiritual development. So at a certain point in my life I think it was back in 2,006. A friend invited me to go to a Baptist church with him, and my grandfather was a Baptist minister, so I’m like, well, and I’d never been to the Baptist Church per se, like I’d never really. I’ve been to maybe one or 2 services, but I’ve never really, you know, gotten into it. I was raised in right. So I go to this Black Baptist church, and you know I go, and I’m like, Oh, praise the Lord! Everybody play, you know, whatever. And but the and but the 1st time that the Praise team came out, I started rocking and weeping and rocking and weeping.
Carolyn Ross MD: And.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: I left the church, and I’m like I don’t know what that was about, but it scared me right. So I said, I’m not going back there. I don’t know.
Carolyn Ross MD: Was it the intensity that scared you, or what was it.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Well, I mean, like, I just didn’t really know what was happening right like, you know, maybe I just didn’t know. I just felt like, you know, I just couldn’t stop crying, and I just was like, I don’t know what this is about, right? So I left there, and I said, Well, I’m not going to go back there. But my friend called and said, You know, can you come back a second time? So the second time I go, the same thing happens. The praise team comes out. I start rocking and weeping and rocking and weeping. And I’m like, Okay, that’s it. I’m not going back ever and then one Sunday you know, I was awakened like straight like. Sit straight up in the bed like 4 o’clock in the morning, and it, and with a voice saying, Go back to that church.
Carolyn Ross MD: That’s amazing.
It was, and and so I get up. I get dressed. I go back to the church, and then the same thing happens. The praise team comes out and I start rocking and weeping. And I’m like, Okay, I don’t know this. What is this? Then the preacher comes out and he starts preaching, and all of a sudden I’m on my feet, and I’m shouting, you better preach. You better preach, and I’m like, who is doing that like I’m an Episcopalian girl. I don’t shout in church. And then the next thing I mean the last thing I heard the preachers say, and people were on their feet, and you know it was a very spirited, you know Black Baptist Church can be experience. And the last thing I heard the the pastor say was, we need the power of a living God.
Carolyn Ross MD: Hmm.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: And then, Carolyn, I went completely deaf. completely deaf. I couldn’t hear anything. I could see him up on the pulpit. He was still preaching. People were on their feet, but I couldn’t hear anything.
Carolyn Ross MD: Hmm.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: So the next thing I know, somebody had their hands on my shoulders, and they were pushing me out of the aisle. The next thing I heard was, the doors of the church are open, and someone had their hands on my shoulders. They were pushing me out of my seat to the aisle and down the aisle to join the church. Wow! And so I ended up joining this church and you know, the next thing that happened is, I’m standing in front of the entire congregation, and they’re saying, You know, thank you. God for one more soul. Thank you. God for one more soldier. Thank you. God for one more warrior, and I’m saying what is going on.
Carolyn Ross MD: Hmm.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: So I you know, when the pastor said, Okay, you can go back to your seat. Now I go back to my seat. I grab my purse. I go outside. It’s freezing cold, and I stand in the cold, and I’m like, and what just happened. And then I realized I had joined this church. So then I look at all I look at the Bulletin. So from that day that was a Sunday. All day, Sunday, all day, Monday, and all day Tuesday I could not stop crying.
Carolyn Ross MD: Oh, my goodness!
Kris: Nurturing Justice: So on Tuesday.
Carolyn Ross MD: What do you make of that? Looking back.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: No, that was the spirit, that was that.
Carolyn Ross MD: Yeah.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Feel it on me.
Carolyn Ross MD: Yeah.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: So on Tuesday in the Bulletin. It said they had Tuesday night teaching, so I go to the back to the church on Tuesday night to find out what happened.
Carolyn Ross MD: Yeah.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: And you know. I I you know. So I figured. Oh, it’s Bible study. There’ll be like 10 people right, and it’ll be boring. Well, there I go into the Bible study. There’s 300 people, the pastor is there in jeans? He’s asking, you know, answering questions, and it’s just it was very informative, and then I finally I raised my hand and I described the experience. I said, I came to your church, and he said, Oh, stop, wait. It’s not my church. And I said, Okay, I came to the church, he said, that’s better. And I said, and then I told him about what I just told you. And he said, Yeah, I remember, he said, I saw you. You were sitting back there, and I saw you know, and he said I saw it, he said I saw the whole thing, he said. I saw when you came back I saw the next time. and then and I said, but I can’t stop crying, and I said, and you don’t understand. I’m a profession. I’m a professional woman, and I cannot cry all day.
Carolyn Ross MD: And I’m an Episcopalian.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Right at that right at that cannot cry all day. And he said, well, I don’t know what to tell you, he said, what I can say to you is that there have been people sitting in churches for the last 40 years hoping for a spiritual experience like you’ve had. And he said. So I you know I don’t know, he said. I can tell you that you should strap yourself in. You’re in for a journey. God is moving, and we’ve got tissues. Carolyn Ross MD: Cool. Yeah.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Right? So I said, Well, okay. So I just, I kept going back. And then about 3 months later, now it’s interesting because the church is on Adam Clayton Powell, Jr. Boulevard and Adam Clayton Powell was one of my icons in idols right and so, in any event, I go back to the church one Sunday or Saturday. I guess it was, and I started talking to the pastor about Adam Clayton Powell, and how much I admired him, and like the whole, you know, connection with civil rights, and you know human rights, and so forth. And then the next day, and he’s, you know, we were just chatting, and then the next day, Sunday, I go up to him, and I said, Pastor, and he said, wait, he said, I dreamt about you this last night I woke up with you in my spirit this morning. God has given me a direction to say that you’re going to be a deacon. and I said, A what? He’s a deacon. And I said, Well, what is that? He just started laughing. and I said, Well, is this something I have to pray about. And he said, No, it’s not, it’s nothing for you to pray about, he said. This is a subtle command from the from the Lord, you will be a deacon. and I didn’t know what it was. And then I you know, he said, just sit tight. And then, when he announced it. Everybody in the congregate. A lot of people in the congregation were pretty upset because I was new, but I went into a service as a walking deacon, which is a deacon in training and in at that church it was a It was really the equivalent of the 1st year of seminary right, the the teaching. It was very intense, and you know not just the teaching, theologically and spiritual development, but also service. You know, development of your gifts and talents for service to the community. So I you know I got ordained the next year as a deacon, and then That was in 2,007, I believe 2,007, and then in 2,009, I’m in church in a service. And then I felt the spirit of the Lord sort of sit on my shoulder and just say, Go to seminary. I’m calling you into ministry, and I’m like.
Carolyn Ross MD: Come on and the next day I go into my place of employment, and they announced that they were.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Actually going to be shutting down because they had lost a lot of money in the Bernie Madoff scandal.
Carolyn Ross MD: Got it.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Said, Apply now. So I applied for seminary, and the day that I went for the interview at Seminary was the 1st day of class in September, and so I go in, and I meet with the the one of the Deans. And he said, Well, it’s clear that you’re called to ministry, and he just signed off on the application. He said, class starts now, and I’m like, huh, he said. Class starts like right now. So just take this to the bursar, make a $100 deposit and go to class. So I did that and And then the you know. Then my journey just continued, I continued serving as a deacon at the, at the, at the church that I was 1st called, and and then I ended up doing supervised ministry in some other churches within the united Church of Christ. and then, you know a series of events. I was eventually ordained in the United Church of Christ. And then, in 2018, I went into a training program to become a facilitator for a new program that they’d launched called Sacred Conversations to end racism. And it was really, you know, it’s really been a journey. It’s been a lot of ups and downs with the denominational life I’ve since left the united Church of Christ.
Carolyn Ross MD: But you, you yourself had experiences of racism within the Church right.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Yes, incredible experiences of racism within the church. I was pastoring. I was pastoring a congregation, and I can’t mention its name. But within the first, st I mean. And so the churches who were looking for pastors. They create a profile, and it tells the candidate, you know, the ministers that are looking for pulpits, what you know who they are and what they’re looking for, and so forth. And so the profile looked really, really enticing, because it’s like we’re looking for a justice facing path, community oriented justice seeking, you know, Pastor, who’s gonna help us to do this and that, you know, help us to be more in the world and seeking justice, and so forth. And I’m like, Well, that’s me right.
Carolyn Ross MD: Good.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: That’s great. Sounds great.
Carolyn Ross MD: Yeah.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: And it was a small, you know, fairly small church, but it, you know, was in a fairly affluent, you know, community and it was this. The people seemed very nice, and I, you know. So I candidated. I profiled for the church, and they called me and I was installed, and literally within maybe 3 weeks of being installed one of at a coffee hour. One of the one of the women said to me, dear, can you make us Collard greens and fried chicken one day? After service. and I sort of looked at her, and I’m like, I don’t think you understand. I’m the pastor, and she’s like. And then, 2 weeks later, one of the another woman said, You know, do you know, you’re expected to make us coffee every Sunday.
Carolyn Ross MD: Hmm.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: And I said, Hmm! So I just then one of the deacons said to me that he always believed that people of African descent were inferior to people of European descent. Carolyn Ross MD: And he said that right to your face. It’s it’s kind of shocking for someone to.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Yeah, I mean, I mean to be fair. It could have been in the context of he’s not trying to say I’m inferior, but that. That’s how he was raised right to always believe that people of African descent were inferior to people of European descent.
Carolyn Ross MD: And in your chapter you actually talk about how that’s really part part of the origin story of the church itself.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Oh, it is, I mean well, you know, and one of the things that happened to me in the church is, you know, when I started when I started training as a facilitator in sacred conversations to end racism, learning for the 1st time that the church was the architect of white skin supremacy and white supremacist ideology. It was mind boggling, and it was. It was.
Carolyn Ross MD: Can you say a little bit more about that, for people who haven’t well in the you know, I mean in the chapter of the book. You know my co-author, Claire Twomey.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: You know documents, the history of how of the Papal bulls, and how essentially the Church ordered people to go into foreign lands, Africa, and into native lands and into to South America, and to basically vanquish and vanquish and rule supreme over people who are indigenous to those,
Kris: Nurturing Justice: And they’re they’re all, you know, pagans, they’re this, they’re that. And you know. So learning and obviously all for profit, you know, it’s all racialized capitalism, you know, all for profit and rape the land. And don’t worry about the people. They’re animals. They’re this. They’re that right so. And they’re not even really people. They’re just beasts, right? So you can do whatever you want with them.
And so learning this, you know, just started. Really, you know, shifting my whole attitude, and then seeing how the Church, and of course, then connecting all the dots and seeing how the church over the centuries has been has erected its foundation on those very principles. And in becoming an institution, really became the empire, that the that the ministry and the teachings of Jesus sought to sought to, you know, destroy, and you know. And and so the church for centuries has just been an institution that is built on perpetuating itself and subjugating people of color and others. And it’s, you know, it’s antithetical. The institution of the Church, in many ways, in my opinion, is antithetical to the gospel of Jesus that is taught that I know about right. And you know this brown, skinned Palestinian Jew who came to set the oppressed free, who declared His manifesto to be. I am here, you know the Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor.
The church is not preaching good news to the poor. The church is actually continuing to subjugate and oppress the poor, and build up its own coffers and its own self. And you know, when you look at the wealth of the Catholic Church, you look at the wealth of the Episcopalian Church, although it’s fading. Now you look at, you know, white Christian nationalism. You look at all of these things, and you’re like, this is all about money. It’s all about power. It’s all about white, skinned people trying to maintain dominance. Even the new apostolic movement is the same thing, right? So it’s really all about. Let’s make America white and rich again right?
And when get rid of everybody who’s not. And so, you know, it’s very
Carolyn Ross MD: You know, a lot of people will push back on that, you know. If they’re hearing this, they may be saying, Well, you know, that’s not my church. My church is different, and we we aren’t set up to you know. We don’t believe in white supremacy and think about the black churches that you talked about in your chapter. The Black Church itself has some complicity in this
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Doubt.
Carolyn Ross MD: Yeah, my, I guess my question is for people who don’t understand this or haven’t been educated about it, or who a lot of people don’t want to believe that the Church is part of the white supremacist movement. Right
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Right? Well, the thing about it is is that you know, in in the, in nurturing justice, we basically teaches racism and white skin supremacy. Ideology is actually the air that we breathe. There’s no one that can escape it. I don’t care what the color of your skin is. It’s not escapable because it’s built into the fabric of our nation, and in fact, the world. And you know, in the Black Church in many black churches, and then particularly well. I you know, I would say, particularly in the South, in many black churches you’ll go into the church, and you’ll see pictures of white Jesus blonde hair, blue eyed or brown haired blue eyed. Jesus, who’s just a sweet, smelling Savior, and won’t he do it? And all of these niceties about Jesus? But Jesus was a radical brown skin, Palestinian Jew, who came, you know, against the forces of empire that made people feel that they were not fully human, and that oppressed them. And you cannot, you know, even in the Black Church, then, you know, you’ve got this this notion of a Jesus that is.
That you’re supposed to be codependent on. And Jesus came to teach us that we had the divine power. When Jesus said in His teachings, These things that I do, you can do also, and even greater things than these shall you do? I mean, the thing about it is is that the Empire is designed to make you codependent or dependent on a structure and a system and institutions that are actually oppressive. And in the Black Church you have all kinds of issues, right. You have misogyny. You have.
I mean, you know the patriarchy is off the chain, and while women have made some advances, the truth of the matter is, if you look at when you go to look at and register for like conferences and major conferences where black preaching is done. Most of the preachers are men like they’re the only ones that have the gospel to deliver. And you know there’s there’s a lot of the hierarchy is set up to cater to the egos of fragile people who really just want the power and control over the people. And and and then, when you know you
Carolyn Ross MD: I want to just bring in the notion of sin, because my younger brother just passed away from the complications of alcohol use disorder after, you know, a long period, and we had a funeral in my home State of Texas, and my! It was held at the church that he and my younger sister belonged to, and the minister kept saying over and over, You know
George is not perfect. George is not perfect. He’s a sinner, he’s a sinner, but we love, we love him, you know, and all of that. And when it came time for me to speak, you know I was moved to say, you know my brother is perfect. He’s perfect in the eyes of God because he came here to learn whatever he had to learn. I don’t. You know I don’t know his, his inner most, you know, feelings, or whatever his desires of his soul were. But you know, in my eyes he was a perfect human being.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: That’s right. That’s right. You’re absolutely right. And you know this thing about sin. To me that whole thing about sin is really just. It’s a that’s another control mechanism that’s used by the Church. The deal is is that sin is anything that makes you believe that you’re separate from God right anything that separates you for or that this that instills in you the notion that there is some difference between you and God. Right, we. We come here as perfect beings. And George had a disease right? I mean, there’s no difference
Carolyn Ross MD: But the other thing that the church rails against is he was also gay, and that
Kris: Nurturing Justice: No.
Carolyn Ross MD: Other reason he wasn’t quote unquote, perfect. You know that
Kris: Nurturing Justice: You know that whole
Carolyn Ross MD: Problem in the church.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Right. That whole notion. You know the anti Lgbtq and trans. You know that whole thing is, you know, there is nothing in the Bible. Okay, there’s really, I mean, I mean, unless you’re going to quote like Leviticus, or you know, people, cherry pick the Bible right? And the truth of the matter is is that people think that the Bible was actually like written by God or written by Jesus like it’s not. No one was walking behind Jesus with a pad and pen, taking down notes
Carolyn Ross MD: Recording device.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Or recording device, right? And you know, and like we
Kris: Nurturing Justice: they call, I mean, I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, but I don’t believe in the inerrancy of the Bible. I just don’t believe that this is these. These books were written by human beings to certain communities. And you know, basically, what was being said to Israel was, distinguish yourself from the other communities around you. Okay? And don’t do this. Don’t do this, and by that you will distinguish yourself from the other communities around you. So this whole notion that God makes you know that people’s sexual orientation makes them sinful is absolutely absurd, in my opinion, and there’s nothing in the Bible. There’s nothing definitely in the New Testament and Jesus’s teachings that indicate such. And you know, when you see, for example, the prophet Jeremiah was rescued by an Ethiopian eunuch, and I read that. And I thought. you know this is really interesting, I said, basically the prophets, the one that even that Jesus modeled himself after right. Jeremiah was rescued, you know, by from the Empire and the forces of the Empire by an Ethiopian eunuch who basically, it’s like, let’s let’s basically the black, queer people are going to be rescuing everybody
Carolyn Ross MD: Right.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: We’re going to be rescuing the prophets, because that’s the deal like, I mean, there’s no shame in anything about people’s human identity. There’s, you know people are, you know, this is why we have to rid ourselves of the notion that there’s a hierarchy of human value based on any kind of difference, skin, color, sexual orientation, ability differently abled, anything. We have to stop this because it’s so corrosive to the notion of how God wants us to live which is in good relationship with love and kindness, and to have joy in the world. And it’s the
Carolyn Ross MD: It seems we’re going in the opposite direction right now the collision between politics. And really, you know, I just saw a picture of I can’t remember her name, but the new head of the White House, Faith Department, or whatever. So now there’s a White House Faith Department in the United States of America, where there’s supposed to be separation of Church and State and politics has been, you know, deeply embedded into religion in America. And now white supremacy is, is a blatant part of that
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Right. I mean, it’s always been. It’s just that it’s been hidden in different ways. But this movement that’s going on now has been in brewing, for you know, decades and decades, this is nothing new. And now it’s just. It’s it’s just been given license, and I think that you know those of us of faith. Those of us who have courage really just have to be very observant, and be very careful about what we ingest in media. And you know, because part of the part of this whole thing that’s happening. Is it designed to make us very fearful? Right? And and fear is, as Howard Thurman, says one of the hound dogs of health. If they can scare you enough, they can scare you into hiding in a corner and cowering and not speaking your voice and not speaking up, and they make you fearful of one another, right? So that you don’t engage in relationship, and God desires nothing more, in my opinion, than for us to be in right relationship with one another.
Carolyn Ross MD: Yeah.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Which is one of the reasons why I started nurturing justice is because, you know, I started doing these groups, and we call them relational transformation, because in this country, particularly. we really are more, much more segregated than we think and people just don’t have an experience of one another. We don’t experience each other’s lives. We don’t get to have conversations with one another about how we feel about things we don’t get when we’re
Carolyn Ross MD: Pandemic pandemic made that worse, you know. Now we can stay at home to get groceries. We can stay at home
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Absolutely.
Carolyn Ross MD: All our meals exactly, can deliver our medications here
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Exactly. I find
Carolyn Ross MD: Felt really isolated after the
Kris: Nurturing Justice: I know very.
Carolyn Ross MD: Lot of reasons, you know.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Oh, absolutely you know, and that’s fear. It’s all but it I mean, it was practical in the pandemic times, and it’s still practical in some, many, in many ways, because people don’t. You now have unlearned how to be in relationship with one another, right? And how to have, you know interactions that are pleasant and that are fruitful and that are informative. And the other part of Yeah, you got rusty. And the other part of it is is that we haven’t been taught. You know, the intentional erasure of the true history of this country is really very, you know, significant because we don’t know each other’s history. We don’t know our own history. People of European descent do not know their history. Nell Painter has a great book, the History of white People. It’s very important to read it, because when you, when white people start to learn their own history. They see how depraved it really is so and it’s and none of this is done. You know the work I do is not done to shame or to blame anyone. It’s just to enlighten, to educate, to be in conversation. And first, st you have to dismantle that hierarchy of human value notion within yourself before you can go out there and start looking at all the ways in which it manifests itself in the systems that we live among, you know, live in and live by
Carolyn Ross MD: Well, I think I think you’re right. That fear. It’s you know
Kris: Nurturing Justice: The pervading sentiments in doubt.
Carolyn Ross MD: In the United States. And and a lot of it is, you know, very valid because we’re seeing things happen that we aren’t used to really accepting or or even thinking that they could happen, people being detained at the border who have legitimate reasons to be in the United States and us citizens, Us. Citizens done. It’s not even
Kris: Nurturing Justice: They deported to countries they’ve never visited before. When Trump, when Trump started talking about we’re gonna deport people to Turks and Caicos. I’m like
Carolyn Ross MD: 2 jails in Guatemala or
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Right, right.
Carolyn Ross MD: Guantanamo Bay, now
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Right.
Carolyn Ross MD: You know so
Kris: Nurturing Justice: It’s outrageous, it’s outrageous. And you know, the thing about it is is that I’m prayerful. You know, one of the things that I had to do. After November 6.th I turned off the news altogether, because none of it, you know, I just feel like all of it is tainted, no matter how progressive or how conservative it is. It’s all tainted, and it’s just, and it kept me in a constant state of anxiety and fear. And I’m like. I cannot, I can’t. There’s 1 thing I can control is my environment. I can control
Carolyn Ross MD: True, and I guess my concern about that is, you know, I’ve read a lot about what happened during before World War 2 and one of the things that happened is, people weren’t aware of what was happening. They didn’t make themselves aware they weren’t staying in touch. They kind of unplugged and said, This doesn’t you know this doesn’t apply to me, you know, like all the people
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Right.
Carolyn Ross MD: And even people from who have immigrated to our country, who are saying, Oh, well, you know I’m not going to get deported
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Right? Right? Exactly and
Carolyn Ross MD: My grandmother won’t get deported. He doesn’t have papers because
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Hi
Carolyn Ross MD: Voted.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Because it’s because I voted for right. Well, the thing about it is is that you know the thing is because it’s you could never be fully detached from what’s happening right? You can never be fully detached because you get it. Whether it’s in your social media feed, you get it, whether it’s through the podcast that you listen to or the you know the newsletters that you, the you know, the subscriptions that you have and you get it through, you know as soon as you turn on your computer here, you have, like, you know, all these boxes, all these news stories
Carolyn Ross MD: Yeah, that I mean, that’s for you and for me, for sure. But I have a lot of patients who have really disconnected don’t know what’s happening, because they are so fearful, and and they also feel that none of this it matters to them. And so I just I just think it’s like I want. Listen! I read Heather Cox, Richardson, Newsletter.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Right.
Carolyn Ross MD: Every day, and she gives, you know
Carolyn Ross MD: what’s happening in the news. But with historical context. So that’s not as upsetting to me. And I can do that, and then I could stay informed. But
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Exactly.
Carolyn Ross MD: You know I’m talking to patients every day. Who are, you know, upset, worried, and yet uninformed, you know, or informed by different news, so I don’t want to go down the rabbit hole with that
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Know that is a rabbit hole
Carolyn Ross MD: It isn’t bad at all. But let me ask you this. So with with your journey in the church, what do you think? Are the challenges in actually dismantling racism and confronting this legacy of white skin supremacy in the Christian Church
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Well, I mean, you know I I don’t know. I don’t know that racism can be dismantled. It is so thoroughly baked into the framework and the fabric of our nation, and therefore in us, I think that the Church has to be really intentional about teaching the true history. I’m encouraged by churches, for example, churches in Florida that pushed back against some of that anti CRT right which is a ridiculous
Carolyn Ross MD: Anti critical race, theory.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: So critical race theory. But you know, and started teaching their children. The Black Church started teaching their children about the true history of their people.
Carolyn Ross MD: That’s amazing. And and
Kris: Nurturing Justice: And unusual, and I think that that really has to be done. I’m hopeful for churches that are undertaking to, you know, have banned book clubs and buy bad books for their kids and try to attract kids to be involved in learning about their true history and youth groups and so forth. But you know, I think that from an institutional standpoint the Church is going to fall under its own weight eventually, in my opinion.
You can’t, you know, because I don’t believe that. I mean, I believe that financially many churches will still survive, because they’re too wealthy to not survive. But I I believe that, you know they’ll be just what they are hollowed out. Buildings of, you know, that are teaching doctrine, and and I and I think that God is going to deal with that, you know I just do. I just trust that that’s going to be dealt with. I don’t have
I think that the hope is going to come in pockets. You know that the hope for a changed institution will come in pockets. One of the things that I did with nurturing justice is, I started a spiritual community for the people that are in my circle. I’m called the Transformational Remnant. I believe that we have to have a remnant of us. Who are, you know, believers, or who have faith of any sort? Right? It doesn’t even have to be Christian that can really go to the deeper spiritual concepts and hold space for one another and look at different, you know, looking at Christianity, looking at Buddhism, looking at Islam, looking at Sufism, looking at all of these different faith traditions that have something beautiful to offer that gives us solace, you know, looking at poetry, and because the gospel is still being written, right, poetry and music and art. All of these are sacred sacred text, in my opinion. And so we come together monthly for like 90 min, and just, you know, have, like what we call the village square, and we have meditation, and we have prayer, and we, you know, share our anxieties and our concerns and our worries, but also our joys, and build a community
Carolyn Ross MD: A lot of people would want something like that, you know. I I no longer go to church because I don’t like being preached at and and like you. you know my experience with my brother’s funeral, and having a you know, a black, mangled preacher telling telling me my brother is not perfect. I don’t like that. I have my own beliefs
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Exactly.
Carolyn Ross MD: That have been hard earned as as yours have, you know, going to different churches, teaching bye about them, reading about them, learning from other people, and so on. But I think a lot of people are looking for solace. Yes, peace, they are But what I’m finding in the church is, while there may be some community there. I’m not finding peace or solace
Kris: Nurturing Justice: No, you’re not well. The transformational remnant meets on the second Thursday over Zoom, the second Thursday of every month, and we just hold space for 90 min, so I will make sure that you have the zoom link for that
Carolyn Ross MD: Yeah, I can put it in the show notes for people
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Absolutely I will. I will send it to you because it’s really a beautiful space, and it so much is revealed, and the more people we get, the bigger the container, the better the energy, the bigger the energy will be. Right. So I believe
Carolyn Ross MD: Well, I wanna I wanna talk a little bit more about nurturing justice, though. Can you tell me a little bit more about the work and your mission and vision
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Sure. So we started. I started nurturing justice back in 2021, after spending all of 2020 and almost all of 2021 basically sitting behind a zoom screen, working with different groups around the country from the west to the south to the, you know, connect the east coast, doing sacred conversations to end racism groups. We do 2 day workshops. We do 5 month deep dives 3 months deep, dives into books about, you know, teaching, basically looking at the history of race and racism in America, and how it developed at a certain point. you know that we started out with this notion that we wanted to dismantle racism. And then I’m like, Okay, this is a pretty much impossible thing. So let me let me like, really. And I wanted to expand it because I wanted just like this is when I started looking at all the intersectional justice issues. So this is really about dismantling the hierarchy of human value based on difference. And this was, you know, a term that was coined by Gail Christopher, who’s a prominent race, racial justice, person.
Carolyn Ross MD: I just interviewed her
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Yeah, she’s amazing.
Carolyn Ross MD: There she is!
Kris: Nurturing Justice: And one of my mentors. So so what you know, what what we did was we started this community. And we, you know, basically, we ask people to come into community with groups of 15 to 20 people and and commit to spending 5 to 6 months, 3 anywhere from 3 to 6 months, doing a deep dive, building relationship and studying together and looking at all the various justice issues, and how we can like uproot these. This, the hierarchy of human value notions that we have within ourselves, and then to take that information and to find a project to find whatever you’re passionate about whether it’s queer justice or environmental justice, or, you know, reproductive justice or racial justice get involved in some way in your community on the local and state level and we get we’re now incorporating community organizing training. So the other the other thing we do is we have educational events, right? So we post authors and prominent or not so prominent people, people in the community that are just doing the work that are written books or not, written books that just to talk about various things. So we had, for example, Aubrey Hendrix, who’s done a lot of work and written a lot about white Christian nationalism and Christians against Christianity. We had Rob Eshman, who wrote a book about racism and resistance in the digital age and they’re all up on our Youtube channel. We talked about jazz and justice racism in the music industry and the jazz music industry. Specifically, racism in the criminal justice system, where I started at my career as a prosecutor, and then as a defense attorney.
We had a prominent attorney who’s also a board member who is one of the most successful death penalty attorneys in the country, and you know. So you know, we try to educate, we try to inspire. We try to bring people together to build relationship, and then we try to send people out into the community to do some work, you know, some to make a difference in their communities. And then, of course, now we’re doing the spiritual component of the transformational remnant which is my heart, my heart, heart, heart.
Carolyn Ross MD: I love that I love the name, too. The trip.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Yeah, I love the name, too, so you know I don’t want to take credit for the name. We were in a panel discussion with Michael Emerson and Glenn Bracey, who wrote a book called The Religion of Whiteness, and Glenn Bracey was talking about.
You know we need a transformational remnant, and my co-facilitator and I looked at each other and said, That’s it. That’s the name of our spiritual community. So I give him credit because he’s brilliant, and, you know, beautiful, and has written an amazing book with Michael Emerson, called The Religion of Whiteness.
Carolyn Ross MD: Awesome. So what most disturbs you, though, about what’s happening in our world today
Kris: Nurturing Justice: I think we talked about it. You know the fact that people are being scared to death
Carolyn Ross MD: That’s the thing that’s at the core, that this
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Yeah, I think it is, I mean, and you know, when the racism doesn’t surprise me. The misogyny doesn’t surprise none of it surprises me right because we saw it coming. We know it’s been building. What’s really, you know what I think, that what’s what is most disturbing is the fact that people are being scared out of their minds, and as a result of the fear they are losing. I mean, if you notice, people are not as they’re not as sharp mentally as they once were. The fear and the the. It’s almost like this cloud that is descended on our country and on the world is tainting our ability to be fully human and to be and to be connected to our source, which is pure energy and love and light right. And so we get
Carolyn Ross MD: And that’s that’s what stress does on a physiologic
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Exactly. Exactly. It’s on a physiological
Carolyn Ross MD: Logical level. It works
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Exactly. It’s on an energetic level. It’s on a spirit, it’s it’s everything, and it’s shrinking us
Carolyn Ross MD: Yeah.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: We’re completely constricted. And I think that you know, that’s what’s most disturbing about it. And that’s what we have to really fight against. We have to find spaces and places and people that will help us expand our consciousness, expand our ability to be fully who we are, and we have to find those spaces right and and I and I hope to create that. You know. I hope that I’m creating that in nurturing justice where people can just be who they are, and talk honestly, without shame or guilt or blame, and without, you know, and and to transcend anger right? Because
Carolyn Ross MD: Yes, I think. Besides, fear anger is
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Anger, is it? Yes, and so you know the prophets. Really, you know, all the major prophets really transcended anger at the situation that they were prophesying against and moved to love. So how do we move to love? How do we move
Carolyn Ross MD: Question for you.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Yeah, it is. I mean, how do we move to love? I think that we have to look at one another and say, You know you are perfect in God’s sight. I want to try to look at you through the eyes of God. I want to suspend judgmentalism right, which is like the lowest vibrational frequency you can be on, you know, next to death, I mean, it’s like you know, Judge, judging other people to within an inch of our lives like we really need to look at each other and give some grace, give some kindness. Look at the person and say, This is a child of God.
This is a child. This is a child who’s got the same, a person who’s got the same energy, the same the same source. There’s only one thing, Carolyn, right? There’s only one thing, and we’re all part of that one thing, whether we recognize it or not. And so how am I going to look at you? Which is part of that one thing and say, well, I’m a better part of that. One thing. I’m better than you know it’s it’s it’s absurd
Carolyn Ross MD: Some of the anger also comes from, like the divisiveness that we’re experiencing, because, even though, though you know, we in the past, we’ve had different opinions about things, but we haven’t felt like, oh, I can’t talk to this person
Kris: Nurturing Justice: It’s like.
Carolyn Ross MD: Now, because that feels like you can’t talk about a certain subject. I’ve been in groups where the subject of politics or what’s happening, come up and then boom! Everybody splits to different sides, and I think that’s really difficult
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Well, and the thing about it is what you know the you to It’s interesting because I’ve asked. See, everybody can be divisive until an issue impacts them. So, oh, I love this person. I love this ideology. I love this politic, this party, this whatever until something is done to impact your ability to eat, to live, to move, to breathe, to have freedom right? And and then its like, Oh. I’ve been duped! I’ve been run! Amok, led astray. How did this happen? I’ve been bamboozled
Carolyn Ross MD: Yeah.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: And then these people start to wake up right? So the thing is is, I mean, I’ve had conversations, for example, on the reproductive justice issue. I’ve had conversations with with people who said, You know, I just can’t get with that abortion thing. I can’t. And I’m like, Okay, well, let me ask you this. Forget about abortion for a minute, because it’s not. That’s that’s language that we don’t really need to use. How do you feel about a woman’s right to have make decisions over her own body. Oh, no, I’m in favor of that. Okay, so full stop period full stop.
Let’s just stop there. You know the way that it’s language. It’s the way things have been framed. And it’s also looking at people and like, what is that one question that you can ask somebody that you disagree with, that might open their mind to see another possibility. And how can you? What’s the one question that they could ask of you That would open your mind, because it’s never an either, or it’s always a both end right?
And how do we get to that place where we can understand the both. And like, we have to stop talking in such absolutes. And we have to recognize that people’s opinions are people’s opinions, and they’re in their minds. They’re equally valid, and you might disagree with it. But what’s the one question that you can ask yourself, or that you could ask another that will open your mind to see Per see things from a different perspective. And that’s the conversation I want to have. Right? I mean, I don’t wanna shut anybody out. Of course you know I have to then manage my anger right
Carolyn Ross MD: Yeah, that’s right.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: That stuff in the pit of my stomach that makes me want to be like this person’s an idiot, but you know. But
Carolyn Ross MD: Tell me as we close, what gives you hope now.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: No, I think what gives me hope is. you know, I think, that what gives me hope is just my ability to see and the prayer that other people will see the beauty of God’s creation, and what you know who we all are, and I just hope, you know, I think that one of the things that’s happening with what’s going on in the world is that it’s elevating people spiritually. People are seeing. Okay. I need to disconnect from this material world, and I need to connect higher, connect in deeper and more in intense and meaningful ways with the spirit world, and
Carolyn Ross MD: A lot of us are feeling that because I started meditating again
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Yes.
Carolyn Ross MD: Which I haven’t done in decades
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Right right, and that’s helpful. You’d have to, because how else will you maintain your peace and your equilibrium? Come to the transformational remnant and be with us
Carolyn Ross MD: I will definitely come, I promise you that, but I wanna also open it up to other people, so we will
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Absolutely.
Carolyn Ross MD: A link to to it in the show notes, and also a link to nurturing justice for people who are interested in your transformational work, which is
Kris: Nurturing Justice: I would love to. I would love to invite all of your listeners and your your people, your community to join us. I mean, it’s a 3, you know, on the West Coast. It’s a difference, a time difference. But we can make things work right. I mean, you know, people make things work that they want to participate in
Carolyn Ross MD: Yeah. And I think with this, podcast. The reason I call it inclusive minds is, I think, people are so yearning for connection
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Yes, it’s something
Carolyn Ross MD: Something that’s real and something that gives them hope
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Exactly.
Carolyn Ross MD: Them that link to. I don’t have to constantly be worrying and fearful. And you know what’s next tomorrow and what’s gonna happen then?
Kris: Nurturing Justice: We invite people just to come into the space and just be, you know, you don’t even have to participate. You can just observe if you want right so and there’s no, it’s no pressure. I will make sure you get the brochures and get all of the information. And
Carolyn Ross MD: Well, it’s been great You today, Chris, I really
Kris: Nurturing Justice: I would love
Carolyn Ross MD: You have a blessed day
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Thank you for. Thank you. Thank you for this opportunity, and thank you for the opportunity to write a chapter in the book that you edit. It was amazing. The book was amazing. It is amazing.
Carolyn Ross MD: Chapter is really, really unusual. People who read your chapter will learn a lot and I think we’ll give them different perspective about the subjects we’ve been talking about today. So
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Thank you so much, Carolyn. God bless you!
Carolyn Ross MD: God bless you too.
Kris: Nurturing Justice: Okay. Take care.
